What are you see'n with Lewis Cine?

[Purple Pain]

Cine seems to be a bit of a hot topic lately. Let's dive in, shall we?

Chris Schad: Did the Vikings Overthink the Lewis Cine Trade?

Out of the four players the Vikings acquired from picks stemming from the initial trade with the Lions, you could argue that only one of them, Asamoah, has a chance of becoming a better player than Williams. But none of this would matter if Cine lived up to Minnesota’s initial projection.

Cine was an athletic marvel at the University of Georgia. He used his physicality to stand out on one of the greatest defenses in the history of college football. With the ability to play multiple roles, Cine was Brugler’s No. 3-ranked safety in the 2022 edition of his yearly draft guide($), “The Beast.”

“Overall, Cine lacks ideal size by NFL standards and has marginal ball skills,” Brugler wrote. “But he is an enforcer against the run with the athleticism in coverage to make plays. He is an ascending talent with NFL starting skills, similar to Xavier McKinney as a prospect.”

Cine’s profile is similar to Notre Dame’s Kyle Hamilton, who the Baltimore Ravens took with the 14th-overall pick. The Vikings probably figured that they could achieve their goal of hitting the “sweet spot” of the draft and adding a premier player to their defense. But the latter hasn’t panned out. Cine’s missed tackle sprung Tyjae Spears’ 33-yard touchdown run on Saturday night, and similar errors showed up during Minnesota’s opening preseason game against the Seattle Seahawks.

The biggest difference might be that, while Cine has all the athleticism of a premiere safety, he lacks the football sense that Hamilton had coming out of Notre Dame.

“Hamilton frustrates quarterbacks with all the ways he impacts the game and will need an NFL defensive scheme that understands how to maximize his versatile talent,” Brugler wrote in his scouting report. “A mash-up of Isaiah Simmons and Justin Simmons, he has the potential to be a diverse matchup weapon in the NFL due to his rare combination of physical traits and natural football instincts.”

Comparing any prospect to Hamilton, who could be on his way to becoming an All-Pro in Baltimore, is a high standard. But Cine can’t even get past anyone on his own roster even though Metellus and Bynum don’t have his jaw-dropping athleticism.

That’s why I question what Cine can be for the Vikings. A gruesome leg injury and lack of reps have hampered his development, and it’s unlikely he’ll become that elite player Minnesota was hoping for when they drafted him. Even if Cine becomes an adequate NFL safety, the additional resources weren’t enough to pass on Hamilton or Davis, the latter of whom went 13th overall to the Philadelphia Eagles.

This isn’t an indictment of Cine’s career as much as Minnesota’s process. It feels like they overthought what should have been an easy decision with the 12th-overall pick. Instead, the Vikings are left with uncertainty about a handful of players who haven’t fulfilled the vision the front office had for them 15 months ago.

Some discussion from another thread:

Aug 21, 2023 14:49:53 GMT -6 Purple Pain said:

Aug 21, 2023 13:25:32 GMT -6 Drank said:

I see talent in Cine that is not what concerns me. What does concern me is he will end up severly hurt and/or a short career with his style. He plays wreckless like JaMarca Sanford use to which can lead to not only hurting yourself but hurting teammates coming in wild. Just like JaMarca did to EJ Henderson playing wild.

Another thing is IQ. Safety is a pretty cut and dry position. Not the most complicated so it shouldn't take to long to grasp what you doing.

Keep in mind before injury Cine was doing nothing in Donatell vanilla defense. I haven't given up on him yet and see glimmer of hope. He played somewhat better this last game, but he needs to continue to improve to reach his potential. I do see talent so there is hope.

His wreck less approach didn't just occur, it's been there. Go watch his collision with Kyle Pitts in college, he has to stop that.

These are from the Seattle game, but here are some good sources:

Here Luke Braun has a 25-minute video on Cine:

There Is Hope For Lewis Cine

I came away from Thursday night's Seahawks game fairly disappointed in Lewis Cine. After watching the tape, I came away even more frustrated - but in a hopeful way. He's capable of making insane run fits from the moon, but misses the tackle. He sees what he's looking at in coverage, but misses the tackle. He's so close. He's so, so close. Which makes it all that much more tragic that he's not there yet.

Video at link: www.patreon.com/posts/there-is-hope-87719924

And some of the latest:

oldbeagle : Tough to fully evaluate Cine right now. Yes, doesn't play a premium position, but he's unusually athletic (9.92 RAS) and ultra physical. Most discouraging thing is the struggles as a tackler, but may yet develop into a top-tier safety. He moves extremely well.

Film study and analysis from the Titans game:

The first draft class of general manager Kwesi Adofo-Mensah has been under a lot of criticism lately. The player with the most criticism is safety Lewis Cine.

It’s been really frustrating for the fanbase that their first-round pick from last season isn’t working much at all with the starters and has been firmly on the second team.

Some of that has to do with his recovery from his broken leg while also being in a great receiver room.

How concerned should we be? Based his play this week, we should be less concerned than before. Here are eight plays that show where Cine is currently at.

Hit the link above for the latest film breakdown on Cine.

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What are you SEE'n with Lewis Cine?

[Danchat]

I think it was wildly assumed that Cine would supplant Bynum. He obviously hasn’t

It isn't a wild assumption for a 1st round safety to pass up a 4th rounder coming off a mediocre first season as a starter. Some are talking about Bynum as if he is a proven starter and a stalwart, but he was a big reason why our pass defense was awful last year. Donatell had him playing deep most of the time and he still got burned several times. I can see him taking a step forward this year, but there should have been open competition at that spot - just like how Ivan Pace has pushed Brian Asamoah for a job.

But then you have no right to be pissed when he joins the Eagles (Bulldogs North) and becomes a Pro Bowler.

Can we stop being afraid of this? Very, very few former Vikings ever end up doing anything elsewhere, and they usually don't become a Pro Bowler. I think Daniel Carlson is the only draft pick of ours in the past 10-12 years who has developed into a Pro Bowler somewhere else. Once 1st and 2nd rounders flame out by the team that drafted them, they typically fail everywhere else about 90% of the time. How many of Spielman's 1st-3rd round busts ended up contributing elsewhere? Do you think Eagles fans were panicking for the same reason when they traded us Jalen Reagor?

There is still plenty of time for Cine to develop and no reason to give up on him this early. Whether he pans out as a 1st round pick is looking questionable, especially when he's getting soundly outplayed by Bynum, Metellus, and even Theo Jackson. But there is reason (based upon his athleticism, some plays that are being pointed out) to believe he could become a useful part-time player or even a decent starter. But the chances of him being a top tier, Pro Bowl player are pretty much out of the window, I'd put at about a 1% chance.

[James]

His athletic ability is off the charts, but his technique has been pretty bad. However, unlike most fans, I'm willing to be patient and trust that he will develop. I get it, he's a first round pick and most ppl feel like he should be starting right now if he's supposed to be 1st round talent. But the window is not closed for him yet. He still has plenty of time. Atleast we're not in a position where we have no one else that can play that position until he gets better.

[dauntessmallhands]

Is he really competing with Bynum or is he more of a Harry replacement when the time comes. I personally feel like the latter based on his physicality and skillset. Maybe Cine should have taken the job as the third guy but can't that also be Metellus getting better as opposed to an indictment on Cine?

Personally, I see it as Harry at SS, Bynum at FS and Metellus at the occasional nickel or allowing Harry to come forward into the Nickel. Cine spells harry and maybe gets some time at nickel as well.

But overall, perhaps it's not a bad thing that Cine isn't higher on the depth chart. He's green and was injured. But maybe it's because the S room is just good.

I think I'm most curious about Bynum. He was terrible last year but that might have had a lot to do with where they buried him to start every play. He seemed like an obvious candidate to possibly lose his job but not a peep really so Flores must like something. So it'll be interesting to see if he can actually make plays if put in a position to make them.

[dougpaschal]

Aug 22, 2023 19:31:39 GMT -6 dauntessmallhands said:

I think I'm most curious about Bynum. He was terrible last year but that might have had a lot to do with where they buried him to start every play. 

He’ll thrive in this defense. He’s a Spielman pick …..How  couldn’t he?

[MidwinterViking]

Love this thread approach. This is way better than all this content getting burried at the end of an unrelated thread.

When I see Cine this year, I think the same thing I did when I watched him last camp and pre-season: wow, that guy covers a lot of ground. Normally a defender gets in position and makes a play. Somehow Cine runs past other defenders to get in on a play. But he's not reading things fast enough breaking at the right time, and doesn't have great fundamentals.

It's a bit like a teenager rolling up in a Lamborghini Aventador for their first driver's ed class. That's some impressive power and performance... can you get it going without blowing something up?

If Cine had the awareness and ability to diagnose plays of a Patrick Peterson or Harrison Smith, he'd be a devastating defender. But he doesn't. The Vikings are correct to keep giving Cine chances and keep working on coaching him. Cine can keep reading the playbook and learning to diagnose plays, but Bynum and Metellus aren't getting any faster. The possible upside is too high to not pursue every chance to get him there.

[dauntessmallhands]

Aug 22, 2023 21:43:44 GMT -6 MidwinterViking said:

Cine can keep reading the playbook and learning to diagnose plays, but Bynum and Metellus aren't getting any faster. The possible upside is too high to not pursue every chance to get him there.

and worst case, they get him to dial it back a bit and take fewer chances. Which would make him the Honda that is cam bynum but with a lambo engine. Over time, you'll pick and choose better spots to race.

[skolvikes]

Definitely seen some nice plays in the last game, filled the hole with a big hit on one play early in the game. He had a nice open field tackle I recall. There didn't seem to be many completions on guys he was covering. Obviously the whiffed tackle that resulted in a TD was a lowlight but still see a lot of positives. I think he will be just fine once he can get comfortable out there in his role and with the scheme and just stop thinking and play ball.

[James]

Aug 22, 2023 19:31:39 GMT -6 dauntessmallhands said:

Is he really competing with Bynum or is he more of a Harry replacement when the time comes. I personally feel like the latter based on his physicality and skillset. 

I too, feel like Cine will be Harrison Smith's eventual replacement. I think most fans just assumed that the Vikings were drafting him to be side by side with Harry. Cine's game strikes me more as a strong safety than free safety. Once he gets his technique down he can be a thumper just like Harry. Best part about it, he has all year to learn and step it up. 

[andhesloose28]

Aug 23, 2023 6:08:17 GMT -6 James said:

I too, feel like Cine will be Harrison Smith's eventual replacement. I think most fans just assumed that the Vikings were drafting him to be side by side with Harry. Cine's game strikes me more as a strong safety than free safety. Once he gets his technique down he can be a thumper just like Harry. Best part about it, he has all year to learn and step it up.

That's an incredibly optimistic view. Ill give the realistic one in my opinion. When your a first round pick especially at the safety position you should be expected to start right away at the very minimum. You should probably be a very good player as well based on positional value. Cine is now on his second D coordinator who doesnt think he could start at the position. Yes I know he had the terrible leg injury but he wasnt playing defensive snaps before that last year anyway. We couldve chalked that up as Donashell not knowing what he was doing but now Flores is here and the same thing is happening. Flores doesnt care what round you were picked in, what age you are etc. He was brought here to put together the best defense he can with all available pieces.

The thing with Cine seems to be he lacks football IQ. Which is not good when you have Harry, Bynum, and Mettelus in front of you. All three of them are nowhere near as physically gifted as Cine but they are all a lot smarter on the field and know what is asked of them and where to be. That is very important at the safety position. I think Flores gave Cine every opportunity to be in the Mettelus role which would fit his game perfect, he just hasnt shown he can trust him enough.

[PurpleKoolaid]

A big 1st rd bust. He reminds me of Sendjo, reckless tackles, flying through the air instead of good tackling. Could make first team reps in 2 years. Bad enough to pick a safety in the 1st rd, but to pick a bust, its pretty sad. Kid just isnt very smart.

[diehardtwinsfan]

yeah, I get the impression that he's probably skated by for too long on his talent and not really had to use to his brain... I hate to say that, but he's being forced to a bit to work on things like technique. College was very forgiving in that way where the NFL is not. I do think it's disappointing that he's not broken into the starting lineup as a first rounder. Yes, the talent is clearly there, so I wouldn't give up on him, especially if the problems are fixable. I'll give him a mulligan in the sense that I don't think our last DC excelled in the teaching aspect of his job, as it seemed like a lot of vets (and fans for that matter) had trouble grasping the system as well, so it's probably going to hurt someone like Cine who may already not have been the sharpest tool in the shed.

But, I can understand the discouragement. He's in year two, probably not going to see the field as much as we'd like. Hopefully, he learns and takes advantage of the opportunities he gets and eventually forces his way on the field. Last thing you want is for him to start standing out right as he gets expensive.

[dougpaschal]

He's got the potential to be really good. Super rare physical ability. People who understand football will be happy by the way he's running and finding the ball

[James]

Aug 23, 2023 6:29:20 GMT -6 andhesloose28 said:

Aug 23, 2023 6:08:17 GMT -6 James said:

I too, feel like Cine will be Harrison Smith's eventual replacement. I think most fans just assumed that the Vikings were drafting him to be side by side with Harry. Cine's game strikes me more as a strong safety than free safety. Once he gets his technique down he can be a thumper just like Harry. Best part about it, he has all year to learn and step it up.

That's an incredibly optimistic view. Ill give the realistic one in my opinion. When your a first round pick especially at the safety position you should be expected to start right away at the very minimum. You should probably be a very good player as well based on positional value. Cine is now on his second D coordinator who doesnt think he could start at the position. Yes I know he had the terrible leg injury but he wasnt playing defensive snaps before that last year anyway. We couldve chalked that up as Donashell not knowing what he was doing but now Flores is here and the same thing is happening. Flores doesnt care what round you were picked in, what age you are etc. He was brought here to put together the best defense he can with all available pieces.

The thing with Cine seems to be he lacks football IQ. Which is not good when you have Harry, Bynum, and Mettelus in front of you. All three of them are nowhere near as physically gifted as Cine but they are all a lot smarter on the field and know what is asked of them and where to be. That is very important at the safety position. I think Flores gave Cine every opportunity to be in the Mettelus role which would fit his game perfect, he just hasnt shown he can trust him enough.

There are certain positions that are more ready to start right away if they are drafted in the first round than others. DB is probably the second hardest position to learn behind QB. Many DBs aren't starting right away unless they are a top 5 pick. Most safeties take time to develop just like QB. In Cine's case, it helps when you have capable starters already on the team. I personally don't think Safety was position where we desperately needed a day-1 starter. But we got him. We have to let the coaches do what they get paid to do and stop assuming every 1st round pick has to start right away. Some safeties end up taking the starting spot as the season goes on Let's see what he does this season. Most DBs take atleast 2-3 year to work into the starting role.  

[MidwinterViking]

Aug 23, 2023 10:38:18 GMT -6 James said:

Aug 23, 2023 6:29:20 GMT -6 andhesloose28 said:

That's an incredibly optimistic view. Ill give the realistic one in my opinion. When your a first round pick especially at the safety position you should be expected to start right away at the very minimum. You should probably be a very good player as well based on positional value. Cine is now on his second D coordinator who doesnt think he could start at the position. Yes I know he had the terrible leg injury but he wasnt playing defensive snaps before that last year anyway. We couldve chalked that up as Donashell not knowing what he was doing but now Flores is here and the same thing is happening. Flores doesnt care what round you were picked in, what age you are etc. He was brought here to put together the best defense he can with all available pieces.

The thing with Cine seems to be he lacks football IQ. Which is not good when you have Harry, Bynum, and Mettelus in front of you. All three of them are nowhere near as physically gifted as Cine but they are all a lot smarter on the field and know what is asked of them and where to be. That is very important at the safety position. I think Flores gave Cine every opportunity to be in the Mettelus role which would fit his game perfect, he just hasnt shown he can trust him enough.

There are certain positions that are more ready to start right away if they are drafted in the first round than others. DB is probably the second hardest position to learn behind QB. Many DBs aren't starting right away unless they are a top 5 pick. Most safeties take time to develop just like QB. In Cine's case, it helps when you have capable starters already on the team. I personally don't think Safety was position where we desperately needed a day-1 starter. But we got him. We have to let the coaches do what they get paid to do and stop assuming every 1st round pick has to start right away. Some safeties end up taking the starting spot as the season goes on Let's see what he does this season. Most DBs take atleast 2-3 year to work into the starting role.  

Maybe CBs, but not true for highly drafted safeties.  Looking at the % of defensive snaps played in game 1 of their rookie seasons, 1st and 2nd round safeties:

2022
#12 - Kyle Hamilton - 50%
#37 - Jalen Pitre - 100%
#62 - Bryan Cook - 70%

2021
#36 - Jevon Holland - 32%
#43 - TreVon Moehrih - 100%

2020
#36 Xavier McKinney - N/A on IR with camp injury
#37 Kyle Dugger - 18% (54% of snaps in week2) <- A good template for Cine
#44 Grant Delpit - N/A on IR with camp injury
#45 Antoine Winfield JR - 100%
#64 Jeremy Chinn - 100%

2019
#21 Darnel Savage – 100%
#27 Johnathan Abram – 77% (injured or would be higher)
#47 - Marquise Blair – 0% 
#60 - Nasir Adderley – 0%
#61 - Taylor Rapp – 47%
#63 - Juan Thornhill – 100%

Looking at the low numbers:
Jevon Holland plays but is just OK.
Marquise Blair barely even plays now.
Nasir Adderley plays but isn't very good.

The reality is highly drafted safeties are typically on the field very early in their career.  Cine was already a way behind the curve for play time before he was injured.  I'm giving his 2022 a pass because of Donatell seemed to screw up everyone.  However, even with that pass, if Cine doesn't carve out some kind of defensive role early in the season, it will be an extremely bad omen for him. 

He doesn't need to be a 100% of snaps guy, he can follow the Kyle Dugger path (Dugger still wasn't play 100% of snaps for the Patriots in 2022 - but when he's out there, he was playing well), but he has to show something.